ClinicalTrials.gg
CompletedNCT03798483INDEX-KDUpdated Feb 1, 2021Results posted

INDividualised EXercise for Kneecap Dislocations

An interventional study of Individualised exercise in Patella Dislocation and Patella Dislocation Recurrent, sponsored by City, University of London. Completed at 1 site in United Kingdom. Open to participants aged 16 Years and older. Per ClinicalTrials.gov, last updated 2021-02-01.

Sponsored by City, University of London · Not applicable, Interventional, and Treatment

Phase
Not applicable
Study type
Interventional
Enrollment
15
Allocation
Not applicable
Ages
16 Years and older
Sex
All
01

Study summary

This study is a feasibility study. It will assess areas of uncertainty relating to the implementation of an individualised exercise programme for patients with a recent kneecap dislocation. This will help determine if a future larger study is feasible, and inform the design and conduct of future research that would aim to optimise outcomes after a kneecap dislocation.

Read the detailed description

The investigators aim to recruit 15 adult participants with a recent, first-time or recurrent kneecap dislocation, from an acute hospital. Participants will receive up to 6 physiotherapy sessions over 3 months. The investigator's exercise programme aims to improve leg muscle strength and facilitate a return to the participant's usual activities. This may include activities such as hopping and changing direction which differentiates it from other programmes. Participants will be required to perform the exercise programme 3 times a week independently. Strategies to increase adherence to the exercise programme will also be used. This study is part of a Masters in Clinical Research funded by the National Institute for Health Research

02

Conditions studied

  • Patella Dislocation
  • Patella Dislocation Recurrent

Browse trials for

03

In context

Patellar Dislocation

41 studies on the registry are indexed under Patellar Dislocation; 9 are open to participants now.

This study's enrollment of 15 is below the median of 50 across 22 interventional studies indexed under Patellar Dislocation.

Browse Patellar Dislocation studies →

Lead sponsor

City, University of London is the lead sponsor of 25 studies on the registry; 1 is open to participants now.

Counted across the registry records on this site, refreshed daily.

04

Who can participate

Ages eligible
16 Years and older
Sexes eligible
All
Accepts healthy volunteers
No

Go through the criteria one by one — yes, no or not sure — and take the list to your doctor or the study team. Kept in this browser only.

Inclusion criteria

  • First time or recurrent lateral patella dislocation meeting the diagnostic criteria of 1) requiring reduction by paramedics or 2) diagnosed by a member of the trauma and orthopaedic team.

Exclusion criteria

Exclusion Criteria:

  • Concurrent anterior cruciate ligament or posterior cruciate ligament injury confirmed by negative Lachman's and posterior drawer test or confirmed by Magnetic Resonance Imagery (MRI); medial collateral and lateral collateral ligament injury requiring application of a hinged knee brace or surgical repair; concomitant injury that would prohibit participation in the exercise intervention
  • > 4 weeks from injury to presentation to acute care (ED or trauma services)
  • Unable to give written
  • Previous surgery on the affected knee
  • Presence of fracture on plain radiograph including osteochondral fractures
  • Medial patellar dislocation
  • Considered inappropriate for referral to physiotherapy (by member of trauma and orthopaedic team assessing the patient)
  • History of severe neuromuscular or congenital disorders
  • Patients referred for orthopaedic opinion who are subsequently listed for surgery prior to completion of the study intervention
  • Unable to understand written or spoken English
  • Unable to attend physiotherapy sessions at the John Radcliffe trauma outpatient physiotherapy department
Terms in these criteria, in plain language(1)

Underlined terms in the criteria open these too. Explained by clinicaltrials.gg, not part of the registry record. The study team decides who can take part.

Informed consent

Before you join, the study team explains what taking part involves — its purpose, what happens, the risks and possible benefits — and answers your questions, so you can decide freely. Consent is usually recorded on a form (the informed consent form, ICF) signed by you or, where the law allows, by someone legally authorised to decide for you.

You can keep asking questions during the study, you are told of new information that matters, and you can choose to leave at any time.

05

Study design

Phase
Not applicable
Primary purpose
Treatment
Allocation
Not applicable
Intervention model
Single group
Masking
None (open label)
Enrollment
15 participants (actual)

Study arms

  • Experimental
    Individualized exercise

    Participants after a lateral kneecap dislocation will be enrolled into an individualized exercise intervention supervised by a physiotherapist

    Other: Individualised exercise

Interventions

  • OtherIndividualised exercise

    The intervention will be comprised of up to 6, one-to-one physiotherapy sessions, over a maximum duration of 3 months. 1 or 2 extra sessions are allowed if deemed essential by the participant's physiotherapist. Less than 6 physiotherapy sessions can be agreed with the participant if they have achieved their goals. Throughout this time participants will be required to perform an exercise programme a minimum of 3 times per week. The exercise programme aims to increase leg muscle strength and facilitate a return to the participant's usual activities. It may include hopping and change of direction tasks if these are activities the participant would normally do. Behavioural change techniques to increase participant adherence to the exercise programme will also be used.

06

What researchers measure

Primary outcomes

  1. Eligibility Rate

    Percentage of patients with a diagnosed lateral patellar dislocation, screened for eligibility, who satisfied the eligibility criteria

    Time frame: 15 weeks

  2. Recruitment Rate

    Percentage of eligible participants who consented to participate in the study

    Time frame: 15 weeks

  3. Attrition

    Percentage (0-100%) of participants enrolled in the study who failed to provide any 12 week follow-up data

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  4. Acceptability [Participant Satisfaction]: Questionnaire

    Participant response to an internally designed patient questionnaire. This will measure several domains of of intervention acceptability: satisfaction with treatment, self-efficacy, burden of treatment, and intention to adhere. 6 questions will assess satisfaction with treatment, 3 questions will assess self-efficacy,1 question will assess burden of treatment and 1 question will assess intention to adhere. Each question will use a 5 point likert scale (0-4) with lower scores indicating higher satisfaction, self-efficacy, and intention to adhere. Each question will be reported individually.

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  5. Adherence

    Percentage (0-100%) of scheduled physiotherapy sessions attended

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  6. Adherence [Participant-reported Adherence to Home Exercise Using a Likert Scale]

    Participant response at follow-up to the question 'how often did you perform your exercises at least three times a week?' using a five-point Likert scale (0-4) anchored at 'always' (0) and 'never' (4)

    Time frame: 12 weeks

Secondary outcomes

  1. Acceptability of Outcome Data Collection

    Percentage (0-100%) of questions completed in the following patient-reported outcome measures: Lysholm Knee Scoring Scale, Tegner Activity Scale, EQ-5D-5L, completed at baseline and returned at 3-month follow-up

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  2. Number of Treatment Related Adverse Events Experienced by Participants

    The total number and type of treatment related adverse events experienced by participants will be recorded. This will be recorded from commencement of the intervention to 12 week follow-up. Treatment related adverse events will be recorded by physiotherapists at each physiotherapy session and by participant self report at 12 week follow up.

    Time frame: Through 12 weeks after first physiotherapy session

  3. Presence/Absence of Common Lateral Patella Dislocation Diagnostic Criteria

    Following diagnosis of a lateral patellar dislocation by an orthopaedic surgeon or physiotherapist, the clinician will be asked which of the following proposed assessment findings to include in the eligibility criteria for future studies, were present/absent during their clinical examination: positive patella apprehension test, visible knee joint effusion or haemarthrosis, medial patellofemoral ligament tenderness on palpation, and a convincing patient history of a visible deformity on the lateral aspect of the knee or a sensation of the patella 'popping' out of joint followed by spontaneous reduction

    Time frame: Baseline

  4. Tegner Activity Scale Questionnaire

    This measures activity on a scale from 0-10, with higher scores indicating higher activity. It will be administered as a patient completed questionnaire.

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  5. Lyhsolm Knee Scoring Scale Questionnaire

    It is scored from 0-100 with lower scores indicating higher pain and disability. It will be administered as a patient completed questionnaire.

    Time frame: 12 Weeks

  6. Quality of Life Using the EQ-5D-5L Questionnaire

    This assess quality of life using 5 domains: mobility, self-care, usual activities, pain/discomfort and anxiety/depress, each containing 5 options. These domains are combined to give a single score ranging from -0.594 to 1 for UK populations, with higher scores indicating higher quality of life. Participants rate their overall health on a visual analogue scale from 0 (worst health you can imagine) to 100 (the best help you can imagine). It will be administered as a patient completed questionnaire.

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  7. Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration From Injury to Commencing Physiotherapy]

    Treatment logs will be analysed to record the duration (number of days) from injury to commencing the intervention

    Time frame: From date of injury until date of the first physiotherapy session, assessed up to 6 weeks

  8. Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Number of Physiotherapy Sessions Received by Participants]

    Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the number of physiotherapy sessions received by participants

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  9. Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration of Intervention]

    Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the duration (days) of the study intervention

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  10. Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Types of Exercises Prescribed by Physiotherapists]

    Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the types of exercise prescribed by physiotherapists to participants

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  11. Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Dose of Exercises Prescribed by Physiotherapists]

    Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the dose of exercise prescribed by physiotherapists to participants

    Time frame: 12 weeks

  12. Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Initial Injury Management]

    Treatment logs will be analysed to assess how participants are initially managed by trauma and orthopaedic team

    Time frame: From date of review by trauma and orthopaedic team until date of the first physiotherapy session, assessed up to 6 weeks

07

Results

Posted Feb 1, 2021
Limitations and caveats
This study was conducted at one centre and the sample size was small. Therefore, further larger-scale feasibility testing is required to determine if a full-scale randomised controlled trial comparing physiotherapy treatments for patients after acute patellar dislocation is viable

Participant flow

Participant flow — Overall Study
MilestoneIndividualized Exercise
Started15
Returned all follow-up outcome data11
Completed13
Not completed2
Withdrew: Lost to follow-up2

Outcome measures

PrimaryEligibility Rate

Percentage of patients with a diagnosed lateral patellar dislocation, screened for eligibility, who satisfied the eligibility criteria

Time frame:
15 weeks
Reported as:
Count of participants · Participants
Eligibility Rate
ParticipantsPatients With a Diagnosed Lateral Patellar Dislocation
Eligibility Rate15
PrimaryRecruitment Rate

Percentage of eligible participants who consented to participate in the study

Time frame:
15 weeks
Reported as:
Count of participants · Participants
Recruitment Rate
ParticipantsIndividualized Exercise
Recruitment Rate15
PrimaryAttrition

Percentage (0-100%) of participants enrolled in the study who failed to provide any 12 week follow-up data

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Count of participants · Participants
Attrition
ParticipantsIndividualized Exercise
Attrition2
PrimaryAcceptability [Participant Satisfaction]: Questionnaire

Participant response to an internally designed patient questionnaire. This will measure several domains of of intervention acceptability: satisfaction with treatment, self-efficacy, burden of treatment, and intention to adhere. 6 questions will assess satisfaction with treatment, 3 questions will assess self-efficacy,1 question will assess burden of treatment and 1 question will assess intention to adhere. Each question will use a 5 point likert scale (0-4) with lower scores indicating higher satisfaction, self-efficacy, and intention to adhere. Each question will be reported individually.

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Median · units on a scale
Acceptability [Participant Satisfaction]: Questionnaire
units on a scaleParticipants Who Completed and Returned Follow-up Outcome Data
How satisfied are you with the effect of your physiotherapy treatment?0 (0 to 0)
How satisfied are you with your involvement in decision making about your physiotherapy treatment?0 (0 to 0)
How satisfied were you with up to six physiotherapy sessions over three months after your injury?0 (0 to 0)
How satisfied were you with the written information you were given describing the study?0 (0 to 0)
How satisfied were you with the written information you were given about your injury?0 (0 to 1)
How satisfied are you overall with the physiotherapy care you received after your injury?0 (0 to 0)
How confident are you that you can return to all your normal activities?0 (0 to 1)
How did doing your exercises fit into your weekly routine?1 (0 to 2)
How confident are you that you were doing your exercises the way your physiotherapist showed you?1 (0 to 1)
How confident are you that you understood how tiring the muscle strengthening exercises should feel?1 (0 to 1)
How likely are you to continue your exercises now your physiotherapy is finished?1 (0 to 1)
PrimaryAdherence

Percentage (0-100%) of scheduled physiotherapy sessions attended

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Count of units · Scheduled physiotherapy sessions
Adherence
Scheduled physiotherapy sessionsIndividualized Exercise
Adherence56
PrimaryAdherence [Participant-reported Adherence to Home Exercise Using a Likert Scale]

Participant response at follow-up to the question 'how often did you perform your exercises at least three times a week?' using a five-point Likert scale (0-4) anchored at 'always' (0) and 'never' (4)

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Count of participants · Participants
Adherence [Participant-reported Adherence to Home Exercise Using a Likert Scale]
ParticipantsParticipants Who Completed and Returned Follow-up Outcome Data
'Always'4
'Often'5
'Sometimes'2
SecondaryAcceptability of Outcome Data Collection

Percentage (0-100%) of questions completed in the following patient-reported outcome measures: Lysholm Knee Scoring Scale, Tegner Activity Scale, EQ-5D-5L, completed at baseline and returned at 3-month follow-up

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Number · percentage of questions
Acceptability of Outcome Data Collection
percentage of questionsIndividualized Exercise
Baseline Lysholm Knee Scoring Scale100
Baseline Tegner Activity Scale100
Baseline EQ-5D-5L100
Follow-up Lysholm Knee Scoring Scale100
Follow-up Tegner Activity Scale100
Follow-up EQ-5D-5L100
SecondaryNumber of Treatment Related Adverse Events Experienced by Participants

The total number and type of treatment related adverse events experienced by participants will be recorded. This will be recorded from commencement of the intervention to 12 week follow-up. Treatment related adverse events will be recorded by physiotherapists at each physiotherapy session and by participant self report at 12 week follow up.

Time frame:
Through 12 weeks after first physiotherapy session
Reported as:
Count of participants · Participants
Number of Treatment Related Adverse Events Experienced by Participants
ParticipantsIndividualized Exercise
knee pain or swelling after completing prescribed exercises that lasted >1 week1
Recurrent patella dislocation1
No treatment related adverse event13
SecondaryPresence/Absence of Common Lateral Patella Dislocation Diagnostic Criteria

Following diagnosis of a lateral patellar dislocation by an orthopaedic surgeon or physiotherapist, the clinician will be asked which of the following proposed assessment findings to include in the eligibility criteria for future studies, were present/absent during their clinical examination: positive patella apprehension test, visible knee joint effusion or haemarthrosis, medial patellofemoral ligament tenderness on palpation, and a convincing patient history of a visible deformity on the lateral aspect of the knee or a sensation of the patella 'popping' out of joint followed by spontaneous reduction

Time frame:
Baseline
Reported as:
Number · percentage
Presence/Absence of Common Lateral Patella Dislocation Diagnostic Criteria
percentagePatients With a Diagnosed Lateral Patellar Dislocation
Medial patellofemoral ligament tenderness100
convincing history of a lateral patellar dislocation93.3
visible knee joint effusion or haemarthrosis66.7
positive patella apprehension test,100
SecondaryTegner Activity Scale Questionnaire

This measures activity on a scale from 0-10, with higher scores indicating higher activity. It will be administered as a patient completed questionnaire.

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Median · units on a scale
Tegner Activity Scale Questionnaire
units on a scaleParticipants Who Completed and Returned Follow-up Outcome Data
Tegner Activity Scale Questionnaire6 (3 to 7)
SecondaryLyhsolm Knee Scoring Scale Questionnaire

It is scored from 0-100 with lower scores indicating higher pain and disability. It will be administered as a patient completed questionnaire.

Time frame:
12 Weeks
Reported as:
Median · units on a scale
Lyhsolm Knee Scoring Scale Questionnaire
units on a scalePatients Who Returned Lysholm Knee Scoring Scale Outcome Data
Lyhsolm Knee Scoring Scale Questionnaire90 (76.5 to 95)
SecondaryQuality of Life Using the EQ-5D-5L Questionnaire

This assess quality of life using 5 domains: mobility, self-care, usual activities, pain/discomfort and anxiety/depress, each containing 5 options. These domains are combined to give a single score ranging from -0.594 to 1 for UK populations, with higher scores indicating higher quality of life. Participants rate their overall health on a visual analogue scale from 0 (worst health you can imagine) to 100 (the best help you can imagine). It will be administered as a patient completed questionnaire.

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Median · units on a scale
Quality of Life Using the EQ-5D-5L Questionnaire
units on a scaleParticipants Who Completed and Returned Follow-up Outcome Data
Index score0.84 (0.8 to 1)
Health on a Visual Analogue Scale90 (85 to 95)
SecondaryAssess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration From Injury to Commencing Physiotherapy]

Treatment logs will be analysed to record the duration (number of days) from injury to commencing the intervention

Time frame:
From date of injury until date of the first physiotherapy session, assessed up to 6 weeks
Reported as:
Median · Days
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration From Injury to Commencing Physiotherapy]
DaysIndividualized Exercise
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration From Injury to Commencing Physiotherapy]21 (15 to 27)
SecondaryAssess Delivery of the Intervention [Number of Physiotherapy Sessions Received by Participants]

Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the number of physiotherapy sessions received by participants

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Median · physiotherapy sessions
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Number of Physiotherapy Sessions Received by Participants]
physiotherapy sessionsIndividualized Exercise
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Number of Physiotherapy Sessions Received by Participants]3 (3 to 5)
SecondaryAssess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration of Intervention]

Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the duration (days) of the study intervention

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Median · Days
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration of Intervention]
DaysIndividualized Exercise
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Duration of Intervention]50 (37 to 79)
SecondaryAssess Delivery of the Intervention [Types of Exercises Prescribed by Physiotherapists]

Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the types of exercise prescribed by physiotherapists to participants

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Number · participants
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Types of Exercises Prescribed by Physiotherapists]
participantsIndividualized Exercise
Knee flexibility exercise13
Trunk and leg control exercise14
Leg resistance exercise15
Running exercise5
Bespoke exercise5
SecondaryAssess Delivery of the Intervention [Dose of Exercises Prescribed by Physiotherapists]

Treatment logs will be analysed to assess the dose of exercise prescribed by physiotherapists to participants

Time frame:
12 weeks
Reported as:
Count of units · Prescribed leg resistance exercise
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Dose of Exercises Prescribed by Physiotherapists]
Prescribed leg resistance exerciseIndividualized Exercise
Prescribed sets between 1-390
Prescribed repetitions between 8-1289
Prescribed frequency 3 or more per week91
SecondaryAssess Delivery of the Intervention [Initial Injury Management]

Treatment logs will be analysed to assess how participants are initially managed by trauma and orthopaedic team

Time frame:
From date of review by trauma and orthopaedic team until date of the first physiotherapy session, assessed up to 6 weeks
Reported as:
Count of participants · Participants
Assess Delivery of the Intervention [Initial Injury Management]
ParticipantsIndividualized Exercise
Lateral butress splint12
Cricket pad splint2
Hinged knee brace1
Full weight-bearing15
Two elbow crutches7
No walking aids8
Knee range of movement exercises7
Non-weight bearing knee strengthening exercise4
Gait practice, balance exercises2
Weight-bearing knee strengthening, strengthening of unijured joints1

Adverse events

Collected over through 3 months after the first physiotherapy session. Non-serious events are listed at a 0% frequency threshold.

Adverse event summary by group
GroupDeathsSeriousOther
Individualized Exercise0/15 (0%)0/15 (0%)2/15 (13.3%)
Most frequent other events
Most frequent other events
EventIndividualized Exercise
Knee pain or swelling after completing prescribed exercise that last >1 weekMusculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders1/15
Recurrent patellar dislocationMusculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders1/15

Baseline characteristics

Age, Continuous
Age, Continuous(years)Individualized Exercise
Median22 (19 to 28)
Sex: Female, Male
Sex: Female, Male(Participants)Individualized Exercise
Female7
Male8
Race/Ethnicity, Customized
Race/Ethnicity, Customized(Participants)Individualized Exercise
Ethnicity — White British13
Ethnicity — White Other1
Ethnicity — Other1
Region of Enrollment
Region of Enrollment(participants)Individualized Exercise
United Kingdom15
Height
Height(meters)Individualized Exercise
Median1.75 (1.62 to 1.8)
Weight
Weight(Kilograms)Individualized Exercise
Median69.9 (64 to 85)
Education
Education(Participants)Individualized Exercise
Secondary education9
Higher professional or University education6
Employment status
Employment status(Participants)Individualized Exercise
Employed12
Student3

6 further baseline measures are reported on the registry.

08

Study locations

1 site
  • John Radcliffe Hospital
    Oxford, OX3 9DU, United Kingdom
09

References and documents

Publications

  • Forde C, Haddad M, Hirani SP, Keene DJ. Is an individually tailored programme of intense leg resistance and dynamic exercise acceptable to adults with an acute lateral patellar dislocation? A feasibility study. Pilot Feasibility Stud. 2021 Nov 8;7(1):197. doi: 10.1186/s40814-021-00932-x. PubMed 34749823 ↗

Study documents

PDFs hosted by the registry, ClinicalTrials.gov.

Individual participant data

Plan to share: Yes

10

Timeline

Tracking since Sep 25, 2026
ElapsedEstimatedEstimated, not yet reached

Ran from Jan 2019 to primary completion in Oct 2019, 8 months.

Results were first posted in Feb 2021, 1 year 3 months after primary completion.

How these figures are worked out, and which studies are left out of them.

Registered
Dec 11, 2018
First posted
Jan 10, 2019
StartActual
Jan 24, 2019
Primary completionActual
Oct 8, 2019
CompletionActual
Oct 15, 2019
Results first posted
Feb 1, 2021
Last update
Feb 1, 2021
What these dates mean
Start.
When the first participant enrolled; while estimated, when the study expects to open to recruitment.
Primary completion.
When the last participant was examined or treated to collect data for the study's main question, its primary outcome. A study that stopped early gives the date its data collection stopped.
Completion.
When the last participant's last visit took place, for every outcome, secondary ones and side effects included: the end of the study. Often later than primary completion, sometimes the same day.
Actual and Est.
Actual means the registry says the date has happened. Est. (estimated) is a date the sponsor plans or expects. It can still move, and the sponsor is expected to change it to actual once it has passed.
No changes since tracking began. The registry record was last updated on Feb 1, 2021, before this site started recording changes on Sep 25, 2026. Its history is on ClinicalTrials.gov ↗
11

Registry details

Key details

Study ID
NCT03798483
Lead sponsor
City, University of London
Collaborators
Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust
Responsible party
Sponsor
First posted
Jan 10, 2019
Start date
Jan 24, 2019
Primary completion
Oct 8, 2019
Completion
Oct 15, 2019
Results posted
Feb 1, 2021
Last update
Feb 1, 2021

Study contacts

Mark Haddad, PhD
principal investigator · City, University of London

Oversight

Data monitoring committee
No
FDA-regulated drug
No
FDA-regulated device
No
View the source record on ClinicalTrials.gov ↗

Not currently enrolling

This study is completed, as verified in Dec 2018. You cannot join it, but the record below documents what was studied.

Follow this study

Get an email when the registry record changes — status, dates, results — or when someone posts here.

Sign in to follow

Discussion

Questions and observations about this study, from anyone following it. Not medical advice, and not a channel to the study team — their contact details are on the registry record.

Sign in to join the discussion. Reading takes no account; posting does. You choose a display name, and a pseudonym is the default.

Nothing here yet. If you are running this trial, taking part in it, or weighing whether to, this is the place to say so.

Start the discussion